tv Larry King Live CNN September 1, 2009 12:00am-1:00am EDT
but apparently it is a hoax. >> all we can do is give them the truth, anderson. >> you're so right, erica hill. >> you can see the most recent shots on our website at ac360.com. thanks for watching. i'll see you tomorrow night. "larry king live" starts right now. >> larry: tonight, kidnapped nightmare exclusive. a woman, raped by the man who allegedly abducted a little girl 18 years ago is going to tell her shocking story. was a monster released from prison, free to walk the streets? wait until you hear what she has to say. plus, inside the house of horrors, see where the child taken against her will grew up and raised two daughters. those acquainted with them are here, stunned by the strange and disturbing news. and then, her stepfather, once a suspect, reveals how she is doing now.
can her family really reunite? will she recover? what happens next to the man all of america hates? right now on "larry king live." >> larry: good evening, there are some late developments in the phillip garrido kidnapping case tonight. let's go to dan simon in antioch, california. dan, what's up? >> reporter: hi, larry, authorities are announcing tonight that cadaver dogs found a bone fragment on the property next to the garrido house. garrido at one time according to police had access to the property. again, they found this bone fragment and at this point are not sure if that fragment is from a human or animal. they'll be taking it to a lab for testing. but we should keep in mind that authorities have said they're looking at phillip garrido in connection with the murders of several prostitutes in the 1990s. the second thing we can report tonight is that local police
are confirming that they are also investigating phillip garrido as a possible suspect in the kidnapping and abduction of two young girls here in california. those abductions taking place about 20 years ago. their names, the girls' names at the time, 13-year-old eileen micelof, abducted while going to an ice skating lesson, and 9-year-old micahlah garrick thrown into a car outside of a supermarket. in the case of micahlah garerick police say she bore a striking resemblance to jaycee dugard, also having blond hair and blue eyes. and what is also particularly striking about that case is the composite sketch of the suspect at the time also bore a striking resemblance to phillip garrido. so a lot going on, larry, and, of course, we're keeping tabs on all of it. back to you. >>. >> larry: thank you, dan.
and we have more going on right now. with us right now is a brave, straight-talking survivor, kathryn callaway hall was kidnapped and raped by phillip garrido in november of 1976. same man now charged with the kidnapping, rape and imprisonment of jaycee lee dugard. jim hall, her husband is with her. and they have been married almost seven years and live in las vegas. how did you find out the man who went to prison for this kidnapping -- how did you put the two together? >> i actually heard it on cnn, coming downstairs to feed my dog, and it was on the television, and i happened to walk in front of the television and heard the name. >> larry: all you needed was the name? >> all i knew was the name. >> larry: what went through you? >> i screamed. i started screaming, oh, my god, oh, my god, it's him. he's the one who kidnapped me. >> larry: did you live in fear -- >> absolutely. >> larry: he went to jail. >> absolutely. he went to prison. >> larry: for how long? >> for 11 years. >> larry: after he got out, were you afraid he would come after you? >> i think he did approach me.
i think he came to my game up in lake tahoe up at caesar's. he was just being paroled, he was in a halfway how. i think he came up and approached me in a threatening manner. >> larry: what do you make of this whole story before we get to your story of keeping this girl and having children with her? >> i think it's horrible. i think it's horrifying. but i don't doubt it. from this person, i don't doubt it at all. >> larry: take us back. how old were you when he grabbed you? >> 25. >> larry: where were you, what happened? >> i was on my way to my boyfriend's house with dinner in my car, he asked me to stop at a grocery store. >> larry: where was this? >> in south lake tahoe. and he asked me to stop at a grocery store and pick up some coffee. and so i did. >> larry: your boyfriend? >> uh-huh. and i did, and as i came out of the grocery store and got in my car, phillip knocked on my window and said, you know, i can't seem to get my car to start, it's cold, do you think you could give me a ride, you know, which way are you going? and, of course, he was going to
go anyway -- any way which way i was going. and so i did. >> larry: why did you let him in the car? >> i don't know. it was the worst decision i've ever made, i think. it truly was. >> larry: what happened when he got in? >> when he got in, i filled his hands with a lot of food that i had in the front seat anyway -- i tried to engage him. >> larry: he was holding your food? >> he was. i tried to engage him in small conversation on the trip. tried to stay on the main street, and when i got ready to turn, he said, where i'm staying is right up the road here. and it was again on another main street that i turned. so i took him a little further up, and then he said, well, it's just around this corner, and i said, well, okay, and i just turned around the corner and pulled over, and he slammed my head into the steering wheel, and pulled out handcuffs. he took my keys out, threw them on the floor, and pulled out handcuffs, and handcuffed me, and said i just want a piece of ass. if you be good, you won't get hurt. >> larry: what did he do with the food?
>> he put it on the floor, i guess. i don't know. >> larry: all right. now, you're in a car and handcuffed. how does this happen? how was he able to consummate this? >> well, you mean, how was he able to handcuff me? >> larry: no, rape you. >> oh, well, he took me to a mini warehouse. >> larry: oh, he took you out of there? >> yes, after he handcuffed me, he transferred me into the passenger seat, he pulled a leather strap out of his hair, and tied my head to my knees. and my hands were handcuffed behind my back. he threw a coat over my head, so i was below visibility in the car, and he took me to a warehouse arena in a very desolate area. >> larry: were you fearing for your life? >> i was. i thought i was dead. >> larry: and then he what, raped you repeatedly? >> uh-huh. >> larry: how many hours were you his captor? >> almost eight hours, i think. >> larry: did he have a knife or threaten you with any weapons? >> no, i never saw any weapon. i don't -- you know, most of the actual rape has just been totally blocked out of my head.
>> larry: was it on a floor, on a bed? >> he had -- he took me to a mini warehouse, it was probably 6 by 12, you know, about the size of a very small one-car garage. and that mini warehouse, the first three feet as you lifted the garage-like door to it, the first three feet was stacked with boxes, like it was in storage, that were half opened with china and stuff coming out. and right behind them was a wall of carpet hanging from the ceiling. and with an opening at one end, a small opening at one end, and carpeting is heavy, big rugs are heavy, and a foot behind that, another wall of carpet with another opening, and behind that another one. it was like a maze. and in the back of the mini warehouse where he had me, he had it set up to keep someone for a while. he had a mattress. >> larry: you're a pretty good observer, though. >> i only saw this on the way out, because i had to go back in to get dressed. so i went in and out. >> larry: you two are married seven years, right?
>> right. >> larry: when you met her, jim, did she tell you all about this? >> yes. >> larry: you knew this all along? >> yes. >> larry: how did that make you feel? did it affect you at all? >> i don't know if -- you know, it was just something where you know what she went through, and there's nothing you can do except support. be there for her. >> larry: by the way, kate has written an amazing article for us, go to cnn.com/larry king and read her incredible story. more after the break. there's no way to hide it. sir, have you been drinking tonight? if you ride drunk, you will get caught... and you will get arrested. denise! you've lost weight! it's just all these giant things make me look small. i eat this fiber one yogurt. (mr. mehta) it has five grams of fiber, zero fat, and fifty calories. please, this is too creamy and delicious. it's true, only fifty calories.
>> larry: back with kathryn callaway hall and her husband, jim. how long were you in his capture? >> just about eight hours. >> larry: continuously raped all that time? >> yes. >> larry: did he hit you? >> he did not. but like i said, i pretty much blocked out the rape part, and i tend to think he didn't hurt me, but hi bruises and scratches all over me. i don't remember it, though. >> larry: how did you get out? >> a policeman happened to save me. >> larry: how? >> it was his beat, the mini warehouse area was his beat, and he happened to notice phillip had lost the key to the mini warehouse in my car. and he had jimmied the lock with my crow bar. and he locked it from the
inside. and so the policeman came around with a flashlight, shining his light on each individual lock, and saw that one was picked, and he investigated. he banged on the door. >> larry: and what did -- did phillip answer the door? >> phillip went out to answer the door and came back in and said it's the heat, am i going to have to tie you up or are you going to be good? and i said no, i've been good, don't tie me up. so he went out there with the receipt, and i sat there for a minute, and i thought if there is a policeman out there, i have to try. >> larry: what did you do? >> i went crashing through, over under the rugs, over the boxes. right out into the parking area where the policeman was. completely naked. >> larry: whoa. and the cop immediately what? >> he looked at me like i was crazy and phillip looked at me like i was crazy, and i said help me, help me, please. and phillip said -- he said what's going on? and phillip said this is my girlfriend, we're in there partying. i said i'm not, keep him away from me. and finally, the policeman said go back in and get dressed,
because it was november, and i was freezing, and there was snow on the ground. >> larry: you had no clothes on? >> i had no clothes on. so he let me go back in and get dressed and as i was putting on my jeans, i had one shoe, one sock on and jeans on. that was it. phillip came back through, and the policeman let him come back through, out of his sight. i thought, oh, my god, he's going to take mee hostage. and he came back to beg me not to turn him in. of he said please, please, don't turn me in. and i stayed out of his reach, i said okay, okay. i won't. and ran back out. >> larry: and turned him? >> yeah and turned him in. >> larry: now, he went to jail for that, right? >> he did. >> larry: did you testify at his trial? >> i did. i did. >> larry: was that hard to do? you foe, he's sitting there. >> you know, i didn't look at him. it wasn't hard. i just got up and told my story. that's all. >> larry: he was sentenced to how long? >> he was sentenced to, if i remember, it was 50 to life on the rape, and life on the kidnap. >> larry: so he's in jail, you felt comfortable, you go on with
your life, right? >> actually, yeah, i never did quite feel comfortable. it takes a long time to overcome something like this. >> larry: what prison was he in, san quentin? >> i think leavenworth. >> larry: oh, it was federal? >> yeah, it was federal. >> larry: it was federal on the kidnapping. >> he ended up in lompoc. >> larry: how did he get out? >> because he approached me on my roulette wheel at work. >> larry: so you knew he was out. >> i had no idea he was out. i thought he was on parole for at least another six years, and in fact we were told his projected release time was 2006. >> larry: so when you saw him out, did you call people and say -- >> i did. uh-huh. i called my pit boss -- >> larry: in vegas where you work. >> right. and i had security card him, but it wasn't the right i.d., but that didn't surprise me. >> larry: who told you, yes, that's him, he's out? >> i got on the phone on my breaks and started calling. i called lompoc penitentiary,
they said he had been released to san francisco city jail, pending parole, i called them. they said he's in oakland halfway house. i called them, they said here's his parole officer's number. so i made an appointment. >> larry: and have you lived in fear ever since? >> yes. >> larry: how many years ago was that that he got out? >> he got out in '88. >> larry: so you've been living in fear -- >> yes. especially the first five years. i just knew he was hunting me. i just knew he was. >> she was still working in tahoe, though, when he preached. >> i was in the same place, doing the same thing under the same name. so i just decided to leave tahoe and disappear. >> larry: so you couldn't twitter, you couldn't put your facebook or nothing, right? >> huh-uh. no. >> never has. >> larry: change your name at all? >> when i got married, yeah. >> larry: why is katie speaking out? we'll be right back. e and disab. in one affordable package. start building your safety net
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program, but didn't tell them why, right? >> i didn't, no. >> larry: so they are learning for the first time that your wife was previously kept and attacked for eight hours by this alleged kidnapper of this woman who had two girls with her. >> that's correct. and my family didn't know either. my two brothers and my sister did not know. and my father had a very small part of the story. but -- my sister didn't know, my brothers -- >> larry: you have a son, don't you, kathryn? >> i do. >> larry: you had him at the time of this, right? >> uh-huh. >> larry: how did he react to all of this? >> he was very young. he acted out by going to school and getting into fights, and because he didn't know why mommy was crying all of the time. >> larry: did you eventually tell him the story? >> he knew it. he knew it as much as he could understand it at the different ages, you know, he's always known it. but he acted out in his own way. >> larry: so you have lived with this all these years. >> uh-huh.
>> larry: he's out now and you're living in fear? >> yes. >> larry: daily? >> yes. i try not to let it rule my life, but it's always just there under the surface. >> larry: so in a sense, this is weird, but as weird as it is, this story, there is some relief for you. >> there is absolutely relief. absolute relief. >> yes. she is free again. >> larry: never going to bother you again. >> that's right. >> and i haven't even begun to feel that -- you know, what that's going to mean to me, because of all of the media. >> larry: why are you here tonight? >> because i want to -- i want -- because i just want to claim my name back. i want to claim my identity. i want to -- i just want to be able to live out loud. >> and we wanted to support jaycee and her family so badly. >> yes. >> with what they're going through. >> larry: the victim? >> the victim and her family and carl and terry and come out here and tell them how much we're behind them and with them. and say thank you especially to the two ladies who were the two officers at berkeley. >> larry: have you talked to carl? >> no, i haven't.
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watch that wednesday night. katie hall and jim hall are here with us. of joining us from new york, is carl probin, the stepfather of jaycee dugard, he witnessed jaycee's abduction in 1991 and for a time was a suspect in the case. carl, what are your feelings as you watch and listen to katie? >> i truly feel sorry for her. i -- you know, i'm a victim myself, you know, being -- watching the kidnapping and everything, i know how she feels. >> larry: all right. first, obviously, how is your steep daughter doing? >> she is doing good. you know, i don't get a report every day. i've been gone for a week doing these shows and everything, you know. and she is doing good. >> larry: have you talked to her? >> i have not. >> larry: you have not talked to her? >> no. she's with a group, and they're taking care of her, and they're getting adjusted, and my wife and daughter are up there, and it's going real slow. i mean, i don't need to be involved in this and disrupt
anything. >> larry: what does your wife tell you? >> she's the happiest woman in the world. >> larry: what does she tell you about how your step daughter is doing? >> i'm kind of out of the loop out here, because they don't want to tell me too much, because i'm doing tv shows, and we don't discuss it too much. she says she looks great, looks really young for being 29 years old, almost looks the same as when she was kidnapped. and she's healthy and she's smart, you know. >> larry: what about her children? >> they're okay. they're also smart. i don't know if they've -- what education they have or whatever, but she says they're smart. they're smart kids. >> larry: do you have any fear of the stockholm syndrome, which is the captor suddenly sides with -- the person captured sides with the captor. >> i'm sure it happened. i know jaycee very well. she is a mellow person. she is just a sweet kid, never got mad, she is not angry, you know. if this was my other daughter,
she wouldn't be here, because she would be climbing that fence every day. but jaycee adjusted to this, that's why she is alive. so the same way she adjusted, i think she can get over this, because it's going to be behind her. i think it may take years, but i think she's going to get over this. >> larry: how long were you a suspect? >> well, i talked today, i thought i was a suspect basically until tuesday when they found her. but i find out from the police that i was a suspect for basically 90 days. but nobody told me that. >> larry: you were the one reporting her being missing, right? >> i'm the stepfather, i reported -- the last person to see her. but nobody told me after 90 days i was no longer a suspect. so these last 18 years, you know. >> larry: okay. so this is interesting. katie is living in fear for all these years, once she finds out he's in prison. and you're living all these years as a suspect. >> well, sure. you know, i was the last one to see her. nobody told me i wasn't a suspect.
it didn't bother me, i just wanted to get jaycee back. what they thought of me didn't matter. my life was basically like her, ruined. i'm separated now, my marriage broke up. you know, it's just devastating. people can't understand, they say when is jaycee going to come meet you? this is going to take a long time. this is going to take years. like, she is still suffering, you can tell by looking at her. >> larry: yeah. are you still suffering, katie? >> um, no. >> larry: no? that's over? >> that's over. >> larry: so you are suffering with fear of him coming back at you. how long did it take you to get over the rapes? >> it took -- it took me a good two years. >> larry: carl and jaycee's mother went on "america's most wanted" back in 1991 to appeal for help. watch. >> we do feel she is alive. i feel her in my heart. that's what keeps me going. >> and this was her whole goal from the start. we have done interviews from day one, and to get her picture out there. this is our job right now to get her picture out there and get .
>> larry: carl, what do you make of this guy? >> he's an animal. just cares about himself. doesn't care about anybody else. he has ruined people's lives and now he says his life has changed and he's happy, and he's, you know, done all this for himself, and he's a christian and stuff. but he has ruined a lot of people's lives. my whole family, my sister, my mother, my brother passed away. he's affected all of our lives by being a victim here. he's destroyed a lot of lives. >> larry: so how and why did phillip garrido get out of prison? our next guest may have the answer. stay with us.
a caller to our 911 dispatch offered that there were tents in the neighbor's backyard, that people were living in them, and that there were young children. >> larry: it gets weirder and weirder. katie hall and jim hall with us here in l.a., and carl probin, the stepfather of jaycee dugard, and scott turnin, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. obvious, scott, why was phillip garrido paroled? >> he completed his sentence both with the feds for the
kidnapping charge, he was transferred to the nevada department of corrections for the rape charge. he was released from that sentence in on our interstate compact agreement, which is typical, he was transferred to california for his parole supervision. >> larry: was he, therefore, a good prisoner? >> i don't know about his history with the feds in nevada, but i know while he was on parole, he was compliant with his terms of parole. >> larry: in retrospect, obviously, he shouldn't have been paroled. but are you saying there is no way -- he had to be paroled? >> i believe it was consistent with the law in nevada. and certainly our parole supervision, nevada has lifetime parole for sex offenders. we do not. so he would be on lifetime parole with the department of corrections and rehabilitation. >> larry: would you change the law in any way based on this? >> you know, this is obviously a very serious crime that was committed.
i leave that up to lawmakers and the governor. >> larry: what did the parole supervision entail? >> regular visits to both his house and then the offender would have to report to the parole office, enter narcotic testing and compliance with some parole programs. >> larry: people went to his house and didn't find anything based on all of the stuff we have seen? >> you know, larry, every report right now suggests that this was so well concealed that anybody just would not have been able to see it. i know that the parole agent involved in this case and the details are still being kept, just so we don't in any way jeopardize the prosecution of this case. he acted with real due diligence. i'm very proud of my parole officer in this case. the fact of the matter is, the neighbors for 18 years didn't see it. neighbors that actually had been in the backyard hadn't seen it.
of so, you know, it was significantly concealed. >> larry: kate, do you have any question, katie, you want to ask scott? >> when phillip was paroled, i made an appointment with -- >> larry: he's right there. >> i made an appointment with this parole officer at the time, and he told me, he said that what do you want me to tell you, that he's well? he's not. he's a sick puppy. we're sure he's going to do this again, but we're pretty sure it's not directed at you. >> well, there is no doubt that this monster had some significant mental health issues. and you know, that's why he was on parole supervision for life. >> larry: carl, anything you want to ask scott? >> yes, i heard he was back in prison in 1999 and served some more time. is that true or not? >> i believe that, no, not in '99. when he came to our parole supervision, he had no revocations, was not returned to california prison at all. >> larry: based on all we have learned, scott, what changes would you recommend in the system? >> well, i can tell you right now, larry that, we are doing
everything we can to review the case and the circumstances and see what policy changes might be necessary. the parole agent in this case did perform his duties appropriately. but we will, of course, take best lessons from this, and see if there's some policy changes that might be necessary. but our focus right now is in the full prosecution with the other jurisdictions to prosecute this parolee to the fullest extent to the law and make sure he doesn't see the light of day again. >> larry: thank you, scott kiernan, undersecretary of operations, california department of corrections and rehabilitation. two men who did business with garrido, and the girls tell us first-hand what they're like. next. so you're mobile banking, your bank's telling you what your current balance is. it's telling you if a certain check is cleared. customers that use the internet, use online banking.
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sign up for free at superpages.com the new superguarantee making the good guys easy to find. katie, jim and carl remain here on "larry king live." joining us in it berkeley, california is tim allen. he did business with the alleged kidnapper for ten years, and saw the girls on a few occasions. ben dahldro has done business with garrido for six years, met jaycee then known as alyssa several times. tim, what kind of business are you in? what did you have to do with them? >> we're a glass and window contractor. we have a showroom and warehouse located in pittsburg, california. >> larry: and what did garrido do for you? >> we would do all of our printing supplies, envelopes, letterhead, business cards, anything we needed printed, coupons. >> larry: and where did he do this? at his house?
>> yeah, he came in -- actually, it's probably been over ten years. he came in in the mid-'90s and solicited us with a flier. and the name of his company is printing for less, and he dropped off a flier and said he could do some printing for us. so the next time we needed -- i think we started off with just business cards, where he came into the shop, we told him what we needed and he printed them up, did a good job, his prices were good good, and we went ahead and paid him and picked up the materials. he would always come to the shop to do that. >> larry: and ben, what kind of business did you do with him? >> at one time we had a hauling and demolition company in the same sort of thing, coupons or fliers or brochures we would work up for our new advertising idea we wanted to pursue. they would be the ones that would work up the artwork and get us through, and so we would go from there and they would deliver cards or we would pick them up, depending on schedules. >> larry: ben, did you meet with
then who was known as alyssa who we know now as jaycee? >> yes, i did. >> larry: what was she like? >> very polite and professional. just a nice young lady. >> larry: did she do the printing? >> you know, i got the impression that she was the -- she was the brains in the business. and i mean that in -- when you would call up to order something, it would be phillip on the phone, and you would hear him talking to whom he called alyssa. and he would -- he would basically confer what i would say to her, and she would send over a proof or correspondence with e-mail from her. on several occasions, i talked with her, as well. and she -- i always got the impression that she was the one doing the design and the artwork. >> larry: tim, do you have any relationship with her? >> no, i never met alyssa. i just met his other two younger daughters, i guess her children. >> larry: how old were they when you met them?
>> i'm thinking approximately, my memory is vague, but i think it was about 18 months ago to 2 years ago. he brought them in on two or three occasions, but the last time he brought them in it really sticks in my mind. he brought them in and just walked into my shop like, you know, he was picking up materials or delivering stuff and he said, i want you to meet my daughters, and so i walked out from behind the counter to the front door there where they were and i shook hands with both of them and he introduced them to me. >> larry: how old did they seem to be? >> one was about maybe eight or ten inches taller than the other one. i would guess to be about 11 and 14. something like that. >> larry: were they well-mannered, were they nice? >> yeah, they were very, very shy. but we get children in the shop all the time. some are real wild and run around and others are quiet and calm. and these two girls were very calm. they were very well-mannered, and they kind of just stayed
right there by phil's side. but they did stick out their hands, and he introduced me and it seemed like a normal situation. >> larry: carl, does it seem to you that your step daughter seemed to have completely adopted a new life? >> she did. she did. like i say, she was a very mellow kid, and this doesn't surprise me at all. you have to know her personality. >> larry: how do you react, katie? >> to? >> larry: what you're learning here? >> i think it's horrible. and i think it's really sad, the poor little girl had to adapt to her environment. that was the only way she could survive. >> larry: all those years, totally adapt. >> to totally adapt, yes. i'm sure they told her that her parents were dead and didn't want her. >> larry: ben, you must be totally shocked. >> you know, i have to say i'm sorry this happened to her. and i really want her, jaycee, to know that she should feel no shame in the way she acted or in the way things -- i've been asked a lot of things about, you know, why didn't she reach out to me, or why didn't she slip me a note, or why didn't she say
something? but to her, that was normal. and as bad as it was, from our points looking in, you know, i'm glad that she is back with her family. >> larry: tim, how do you feel? >> i feel the same. our hearts go out to the family. i mean, it's -- i mean, three young lives just ruined and thrown into chaos like this. it's terrible, terrible. and i'm hoping by people watching this show, and people that are interested in this case that people can kind of understand that weird, strange things can happen like this. people can act one way in front of you, and a different way when they're not in front of you. and it's certainly opened my eyes up to the fact that there are bad people out there, and i think maybe we're all a little naive, and don't realize what can be out there. and you have to maybe look for the signs a little more than we do. >> larry, can i say something? >> larry: well said by both of
you. yeah, quickly, ben. >> i wanted to say real quick, i think there should be something in place where someone like this couldn't be doing business. we had no idea who we were dealing with. there is nothing in -- nothing in the laws or nothing that watches these people to where they shouldn't have a source of income that's not reported. >> larry: well said. >> we had no idea who we were dealing with. >> larry: tim and allen, thank you for joining us. two women in berkeley are the heroins, and they knew something was wrong with garrido, and they took action. and they're here in 60 seconds.
i'm in shock. first of all, that's not who i am as a person. that's not the person i want to be. when i look at the police report oz are hear about the police reports, i don't know what to think. i just don't know what to think. it's just like, wow. >> larry: you remember doing it? >> no. >> larry: we're back. we'll be joined in a moment by
officers ally jacobs and lisa campbell from the berkeley police force in berkeley, california. katie, from what you've heard about this, the businessmen and the like, was garrido two people? was -- i mean -- >> well, i only knew one person. >> larry: to them, he's a normal businessman. >> yeah, i only knew one person. >> larry: think back. when he asked for help with the car? >> he seemed totally normal. he was dressed in a nice denim suit with a brown turtleneck, which was the style in the '70s. had a long pony tail, didn't look like what you would think a rapist would look like. he looked normal. he did. >> larry: carl, what do you make of this as you hear from these people, the parole guy, the two businessmen? what read do you get on this? >> it just doesn't surprise me. what's funny, i was just thinking is, when i first met my wife, she was doing the same thing jaycee was doing, she was in art design, she worked for a printing company. how crazy is this?
>> larry: the whole thing is almost -- isn't it, katie, beyond belief? >> it is. it truly is. i'm just so glad that he is going to be locked up now. forever. >> larry: all those months you lived -- for years you lived in fear. every day, were you suspicious? >> every day -- i had to be. >> larry: you turned the corner? >> i had to be. every -- every day. every phone call. everybody i met. i just had to always be on guard. you know, i tried not to let it consume me, but it's always there. >> larry: did you have any hesitancy about marrying her? >> never, no. we were married after eight months. >> larry: we'll take a break and come back with officers jacobs and campbell right after this. if you've had a heart attack caused by a completely blocked artery, another heart attack could be lurking waiting to strike. a heart attack caused by a clot, one that could be fatal. but plavix helps save lives. plavix taken with other heart medicines,
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of the hour. what's up, anderson? >> breaking news in california where five residents are trapped by walls of fire in the canyon. the fast-moving blaze has doubled in size and is threatening more than 10,000 homes. we'll have a live report from the front lines. and are there more victims? police investigating the man who allegedly held and kidnapped jaycee dugard in the disappearance of at least two other girls. we'll have the latest from dan simon. more questions tonight about whether the british government struck a deal with libya for the release of the lockerbie bomber in exchange for oil. we're keeping them honest, those stories and more and doctor sanjay gupta taking your questions about the h1n1 flu. ahead on "360," larry. >> larry: that's "ac 360" with anderson cooper, at the top of the hour, that's 10:00 eastern, 7:00 pacific. now with us, officers jacobs and camp bell.
they're with the uc berkeley police. and lisa campbell is special events manager for the university of california berkeley. okay. what happened, ally? what happened when garrido came up to you, what caused all of this? what caused your suspicion? >> actually, garrido first encountered with lisa, so i'll let her tell you. >> larry: all right, lisa, you go first. >> garrido came into our office looking to basically schedule an event with the ucpd, which is customary with anybody on campus who wants to schedule an event has to come through ucpd to determine whether or not it's something that the university wants to host or be responsible for. that's how he first came to us. >> larry: and? >> when -- he came to us on monday. and so monday i didn't have enough time to really talk to him. i had another appointment. but he entered my office and had the girls with him. he was extremely passionate and animated about his message, and he really wanted to -- he was excited that he had a voice and somebody was listening to him, actually. the girls, i observed in the background. they drew attention because they
didn't fit in. they are not at all assuming, extremely submissive, pretty much in the backdrop, not acting like children that age. so i wanted to address him but i needed to get more time. i asked him if he would be willing to come in for an appointment. to discuss his event. >> larry: he came back, right? >> yes. >> larry: and he came back with his -- with three women now, right? or four? who came back with him? >> when he came back on tuesday he came back with the same two girls. >> larry: i'm limited on time here. what made you turn it over to the police? >> actually we did a name check and then ally was able to determine he had a criminal back grounded with rape and kidnapping. after we talked to him for a while, we notified -- ally notified his parole officer. >> larry: ally, did you come
over and make the arrest? >> no. i didn't get to arrest him. >> larry: who did? >> i'm not sure. maybe the fbi. i don't know. >> larry: did you ask him to remain there or did he go back home? >> no. after we were talking to him, we basically came to the conclusion that he was a little disturbed and had some maybe mental health issues at that point. but there wasn't enough to hold him. my main concern was for the two little girls that were with him. i could see no sign of abuse. there was something not right about them that sparked our interest, kind of a gut feeling, if you will. that's why i wanted to follow up with the parole officer was to make sure that the girls were okay, maybe do a home visit. >> larry: and hnow that you kno what you know, ally, what do you make of all this? >> it's incredible, larry. it's overwhelming. i'm so happy that these girls
are back home safe and that this horrible event is over for them. >> larry: without both of you, this may never have come forth. >> well, we're just grateful we were able to be in the place at the time and do the service that we did. >> larry: we salute you both. i know, so does katie, especially katie and jim and carl as well. what's it like to get your child back after he's been kidnapped and held for years? our next guests know and they'll tell us about it. i'm janet long and i formed my toffee company through legalzoom. i never really thought i would make money doing what i love. robert shapiro: we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.
>> larry: here in the studio is a clinical psychologist. we'll get her read on all this. first, let's check in in st. louis, missouri with, pam and craig acre who's remember their son was abducted when he was 11, held for four years. pam, how's he doing? >> oh, he's doing just absolutely wonderful. he's turned 18. if you ever met him on the street and didn't know who he was, you would have never known what happened to him. >> larry: what's he doing, craig? is he a senior in high school? >> he's a senior. he's going to graduate early. he needs two half credits to finish out his high school. he's working part time as a cashier, playing sports, dating girls, hanging out, having a great time. >> larry: all right. you have noticed any major impact from what happened to him, pam? >> no. actually, we haven't. i think it was just because of the good therapy that we got at
the very beginning and us able to work things out as a family that i don't think he's going to have any problems. >> larry: doctor, first, what's your read on all this? >> i want to say two things. this story is so important. first, it's about those women officers who followed their intuition. we've got to meddle. we've got to be interested. if we're concerned, follow your gut and report it. report again. >> larry: well said. >> that's one. and the second thing and to you as well as jaycee and her daughters, it's about courage and survival and resillency. because i think it's something i think it's something that carl said about jaycee that's really true. she's alive because she was resilient. she, i'm sure, is coping with the stockholm syndrome. >> larry: she maybe also totally liked this guy. >> you have to. stockholm syndrome is a syndrome that concentration camp victims
have had. rape and torture victims have had. your mind does it. you don't have a choice. you don't choose to have it. you go into a situation like that and you're -- our minds help us survive. >> larry: did your boy have that, craig? >> you know, that's something that we talked about quite a bit. i really don't think it's necessarily stockholm syndrome. i think it's more of a child just getting to a place where they figure out what they have to do to survive. i believe survival mode kicks in. and they know if i do this, i won't die. and that's really what i believe it is. >> yeah, i mean it's only named that. you know, this group of behaviors that happened was only named stockholm syndrome because of a famous incident. but it's actually that's very true. we do that because we are given good things about our abuser. and that makes us hopeful. >> larry: what tip would you have for a person being raped, katie? is there any tip other than submission? >> absolutely. i think with every young girl taught that as soon as they're
able to even listen. you submit. be submisive and you survive. >> right. and there are different moments like for you where you took -- you ran when you could. >> i did. >> she was also only in captivity for eight hours. >> larry: she is totally nude and runs out in the cold. >> those are the critical moments. once you've been in captivity for a length of time, even days, it's very hard. >> larry: carl, what it is like to live in existence as the accused? >> it didn't really bother me. i knew it was coming. i'm the last person to see her and a major player. i'm the stepdad. it didn't really surprise me. i was prepared for it. >> larry: it cost you your marriage and a lot of your life. didn't it? >> it did. what can you do. i mean, my was so up set, not so much me being accused, just what happened to jaycee. i mean the first ten years, like i say, she didn't celebrate christmas. when she was taken, she would
take a week vacation and stay home. she was a basket case. it took about ten years to have -- finally they had a psychiatrist talk to her to have a closure to go beyond and go on with her life. >> larry: we'll be doing lots more on this i'm sure. i'm sure dr. golland and others will be back as well. dr. golland, someone like this, do you have any idea how they got to be like this or what causes this? >> you know, he's a sociopath. and i am sure in his history there is probably intense abuse. most people who get to this point, they're abusers. i want to make sure we realize there was also a woman involved in this kidnapping, the wife. nancy. okay? >> larry: what part did she play? >> that is extremely important. i've done a lot of stories on female sexual predators. it's very important we don't make light of her role >> larry: do you think she participated? >> oh, i'm sure she participated in. i'm sure of it. >> larry: thank you all. katie, thank you for coming. >> thank you. >> larry: